Don’t Poke A Lion With A Short Stick

Update 2: Here is a video from Israeli TV showing an IDF soldier being stabbed on one of the boats this morning:

Update: Here are videos of the so-called “peace activists” attacking IDF soldiers landing on their ship this morning off the coast of Israel, after repeated warnings to leave.

Here is a link to a video of some of the “preparations” for the confrontation with the soldiers. I wonder if the lady shown at the end who wanted martyrdom got her wish.

“Don’t poke a lion with a short stick”: I am shamelessly stealing a phrase from one of the talkbalks on Ynet which sums up this morning’s events on the boats trying to force their way past the Israeli Navy.

I personally am very happy that the soldiers were not afraid to use weapons to defend themselves and carry out the takeover of the boats. I am sure there will be a media outcry at first, but later on it will be harder to find “useful idiots” to carry out this kind of stunt. (How many idiots stood in front of bulldozers after Rachel Corrie was killed?)

Tangling with the Israeli Navy is not a pleasure trip.

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28 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Jameel
    May 31, 2010 @ 16:20:01

    Did you know one of the flotilla ships was named, “the MV Rachel Corrie” ?

    Personally, we should have just torpedoed them all.

  2. westbankmama
    May 31, 2010 @ 16:33:07

    Jameel – You have great coverage today on this topic. I had to work most of the day and I am just catching up with my post….

  3. hulk
    May 31, 2010 @ 23:48:54

    Please don’t try to apologise the latest israeli crime. Israel is the biggest propaganda machine in the world. Even after it has clearly murdered 15+ civilians on INTERNATIONAL waters, it can still play the victim. Jeeez.

  4. westbankmama
    Jun 01, 2010 @ 05:32:24

    hulk – Did you look at the videos on my blog? Did you see the “civilians” attacking the soldiers? They clearly acted in self-defense.

  5. Kevin
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 06:39:28

    As an israeli, right wing zionist I must say this is the biggest Israeli screw up we have had in years (possibly decades). You mentioned “it will be harder to find “useful idiots” to carry out this kind of stunt”
    –you are gravely mistaken more and more ships are coming to gaza today and tomorrow….

    Was it worth it??? was it worth the PR disaster that has ensued for killing these “peace” activists…

    I know the truth- these so called activists hid behind the vale of a humanitarian mission while in truth setting israel up for a political stunt. I get that. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is how the world perceives the fiasco, and it doesn’t look good. Truth is subjective.

    It was a lose lose situation for Israel from the beginning (the activists either got to israel and broke the blockade or they get stopped and create a political stunt). The blockade is going to be lifted, but that doesnt matter they were getting their weapons through the tunnels anyway. so even if this flotilla did have weapons and did go unchecked it would not have made a difference. Horrible horrible horrible, and the fact that all this occurred in international water is the cherry on top.

    This was totally not worth keeping the blockade and having Israel look like Nazis or Chinese communist thugs.
    -Even if our soldiers were fighting for their lives.

    I dont know who on the israeli side is to blame. I love Bibi. but there is no doubt this was a mistake.

  6. Y
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 08:19:35

    i’m appalled, kevin. you would have preferred to just let all those jewish soldiers be killed by the terrorists on board the turkish ship, just so that israel’s PR wouldn’t take a beating? what a disgusting thing to say. who cares if the world gets angry at the idea that jewish soldiers might defend themselves by force against a mob of islamic terrorists? God will judge those people. in the meantime, our soldiers are safe and the terrorists are dead. that’s quite a success – unless you don’t believe israelis have the right to defend themselves.

  7. twight
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 09:43:28

    There was no ‘terrorists’ on those ships. Israel began expelling all the activists seized during a raid on an aid convoy. Do you think they would expell “terrorists”? As for self defence, ask yourself who did attack whom first. If this incident happened near Iran with Iranian Revolutionary Guards (instead of idf) attacking an aid convoy, then I bet you would be condemning it.

  8. Kevin
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 16:09:19

    To number 6:

    Thats not at all what I am saying. Our boys had every right to defend themselves when they where attacked. But they should have never boarded the boat in the first place. It was a lose lose situation especially in international waters, and trust me hamas doesn’t have a problem smuggling in weapons through the tunnels ( stopping the flotilla in the hypothetical situation that it had weapons would still be pointless).

    I support our boys 100% — We are all Shayetet 13.

    But the mission was flawed. And I’m not blind enough, to not see that. And in retrospect not worth the cost.

  9. Ben-David
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 18:02:07

    Kevin – and others on the internet – never explain how giving in to our enemies will help us in the long term.

    Israel has a right – and a real security need – to blockade Gaza. The fact is that the blockade makes it harder to smuggle weapons, and has significantly reduced the number of attacks. In an imperfect world – you don’t discard such an effective tactic.

    Our enemies are trying to divert the world’s attention – and the language they use to describe the situation – from a focus on terror and self-defense to a focus on “humanitarianism”. This is the same tactic that turned a security fence into an “apartheid wall”.

    They are doing this to delegitimize Israel’s right to defend itself.

    So – how does folding to that pressure help Israel? Aside from avoiding momentary PR discomfort – how does it help Israel get its message across?

    It doesn’t. Allowing the boats to pass would have been interpreted as a victory, a confirmation that the blockade is unjust. It would have made it harder in the long run to stop the next ship – harder for Israel to defend itself, and defend its defending itself!

    In fact, such caving and currying for favor is what got Israel into this mess – half-measures, pulled punches, and betrayal of our legitimate self-interest have only invited further pressure.

  10. aliyah06
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 20:07:48

    The “international waters” mantra is getting a bit tired. International maritime law permits blockades of enemy entities upon a de facto state of hostilities and notice to other nations. The other nations are not required to formally agree to it or even like it. Once that notice has been given and the blockade begins, the blockading country has the right to intercept ships heading towards the blockaded entity even if they are in international waters, and regardless of whether they are civilian or military ships. The ships attempting entry must be given a warning, be told to turn back, be told it is a closed military zone, and told that force will be used to expel them.

    Cuban Missile Crisis, anyone? That blockade was in international waters. Embargo of Iraq? That was in international waters. The allied interception of Iran-bound cargo ships in the Persian Gulf to this day? All taking place in international waters. So, quit with the “international waters” whining.

    Israel has two choices: (1) enforce the blockade and prevent Hamastan from rearming like Hezbollah has done with impunity; or (2) allow one ship through and that ends the blockade and fleets of vessels like the Karine A will flood Gaza with weaponry.

    As an Israeli citizen living under Hezbollah’s (and Syria’s and Iran’s) missiles, I opt for stopping any ship trying to reach Gaza.

    But I agree somewhat with Kevin about the methodology. Intercept the enemy ships, warn the enemy ships, order the enemy ships to turn back, reiterate that force will be used, and when they disregard all these warnings, sink them.

    There’s no reason any Israeli soldier or sailor should be put at risk boarding an enemy vessel.

  11. Y
    Jun 02, 2010 @ 23:41:29

    “There was no ‘terrorists’ on those ships.”

    hmm. a vessel full of turkish islamic fundamentalists who were even bold enough to videotape and distribute the footage of themselves singing “khaybar khaybar, death to the jews” while on board the ship and talking about the possible “happy ending” of martyrdom, and then, true to their words, viciously attacking every jew who steps on the ship. yup, sounds like terrorists to me.

  12. twight
    Jun 04, 2010 @ 10:53:04

    ^ There weren’t “viciously attacking every jew” that stepped on the ship. They were attacked by Israeli commandos and they were resisting and defending themselves. Oh, and if some of them were singing “khaybar khaybar”, i’m afraid that’s not enough to be labelled a terrorist.

  13. aliyah06
    Jun 04, 2010 @ 12:10:15

    No, taken in isolation “Khaybar, khayber” and the rest of the song extolling Jewish genocide whose lyrics you forgot to post may not be enough to make them terrorists; I think it was the rest of the evidence–the fact that they attacked in squads of 20, had obvious military training, were armed with knives, guns, metal pipes, were wearing bulletproof vests, were filmed by al-Jazeera extolling jihad and martyrdom, and each carried NO identification or passport but every one of them had $10,000 in cash on his person……if you don’t like “terrorist” how does “jihadi mercenary” strike you?

    They certainly don’t qualify on these facts as “peace activists” and for you to persist in that appellation just makes you look silly, deluded or an idealogue who can justify any Newspeak chanted by the fringe Lefties who seem to have abandoned their principles like their Stalinist grandparents.

  14. twight
    Jun 04, 2010 @ 18:04:49

    hahaha, I love your writing style, aliya. You don’t realize how far from the truth you are. Do you really believe Turkey would sponsor terrorists? Israel allowed the Free Gaza Movement to sail from Cyprus to Gaza several times in 2007 and 2008. How about that? Reports from on board the ship say the Israeli soldiers began firing first and that activists were waving white flags. How about that?

    More and more love boats are going to come! They are all going to carry humanitarian aid with the support from many EU countries. Israel is not going to win this PR war but will make itself bloody in this process by trying to intercept these ships. So long!

  15. aliyah06
    Jun 05, 2010 @ 17:49:19

    Glad you like my writing style. You, on the other hand, need a serious course in logic. The first three Israelis who landed on the ship were wounded: one was shot in the knee, one was stabbed in the stomach and one was knocked unconscious with an iron pipe (he is in critical condition still); the 4th Israeli landed, set up a perimeter to guard his wounded comrades and opened fire on a group of jihadis who tried to attack HIM. Since he already had three wounded by knife, gun and pipe, clearly the people who “fired first” were the jihadis.

    If you are such an ideologue that you can’t employ logic to distinguish fact from the self-serving lies of the propagandists (like yourself) for a morally bankrupt cause (the smuggling of weapons to a terror entity promulgating genocide) under the cynical fig-leaf of “humanitarian aid” then facts won’t impact a closed mind like yours. Facts, not fascist lefty rhetoric, speaks volumes: films confiscated from the jihadi mercenaries show “wounded” being treated on the ship were created in daylight hours, hours before the ships were boarded — another cynical Paliwood propaganda production. That lie alone puts everything said by your jihadi mercenaries in question. This was a well-planned propaganda stunt, which exploited poor, ignorant, manipulated people.

    Each of these people had $10,000 case. They were recruited by an “Islamic charity” (read: front for raising money for terrorism) at $10,000 apiece–a fortune to a poor Turk. How cynical and anti-humanitarian is it to recruit poverty stricken working class folks to go die for publicity for your corrupt cause? Urged on by a cynical appeal to religious extremism that perverts the essence of Islam?

    And you seem to think this is just fine, blinded by your hate for Israel. You aren’t a humanitarian–or you’d care about the people exploited for this publicity stunt (who were not waving white flags, and who DID fire first)–you’re just a hater. Go ahead and hate. We will never surrender to haters like you and all your fellow haters of Hamas, so get used to your fig-leaf flotilla being intercepted.

  16. twight
    Jun 06, 2010 @ 17:58:51

    You cleary don’t know what you’re talking about, aliya. What weapons were those activists smuggling? Your terms like “fascist lefty rhetoric” and “front for raising money for terrorism” sound really stupid to me. Do you even know what fascism is (and how can you connect it with leftism)? And you are calling me propagandist? You better look at yourself.

    What makes you think I hate Israel (and that Hamas members are my fellows)? Because I criticized its latest attack (in which 9 activists were killed)? Britain Prime Minister David Cameron said Israel’s Gaza flotilla raid was ‘completely unacceptable’ and called for an end to the economic blockade of the impoverished territory. Remember, England is not one of the Israel’s enemies. Do you think Cameron “hates” Israel too?

    If things are really that clear and if Israel is totaly innocent and has nothing to hide, then why did it oppose international probe of Flotilla Raid? And why did it release all those “terrorists” or “jihadists”?

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/13db590042c0a063b10afd937d244f25/protest-608.jpg?MOD=AJPERES

  17. aliyah06
    Jun 06, 2010 @ 21:40:07

    You are long on rhetoric and very short on factual response here. Simply repeating that I “don’t know what [I’m] talking about” doesn’t make it so. On the contrary, almost everyone posting here has a better idea of what we’re talking about than you do, apparently, since you haven’t been able to rebut anything.

    “Fascism”– “A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.” [Robert O. Paxton, “The Anatomy of Fascism,” 2004]

    Sort of like Gaza. A place where the preoccupation with perceived Arab decline and “humiliation” has engendered a fascist totalitarian religious fanaticism obsessed with denying women any freedom of dress, of education, or choice, or of movement (shooting unaccompanied women who dare to walk with men they are not related to); denying the electorate any freedom of choice (the Islamist slogan is “One Man, One Vote–Once) by mounting a coup d’etat and killing its opposition; killing Christian Arabs who have lived there even longer than Moslem Arabs, and destroying their stores and terrorizing their families; destroying a children’s summer camp so that little girls can’t learn dance and gymnastics because it is “immoral.” Here you have the mass-based party of traditional elites of the paternalistic, misogynistic Arab religious leadership married to a fanatic nationalist militarism justified by religious sanction. Democratic liberties were tossed aside in the coup d’etat in favor of a redemptive genocidal vision of conquest of a land that, by the international law you are so fond of quoting, is not theirs–but by cleansing the impure (Fatah, secular, Christian Arabs) from within and committing genocide to destroy the Jews they can expand into the former Jewish state.

    Yes. I know what Fascism is and it is called Gaza. It sits on my border to the south and rains death and destruction at regular intervals on my people. And ignorant people like you think Gaza should simply have an open border so they can get Scuds like Hezbollah has……

    Literally thousands of tons of humanitarian aid goes into Gaza every week at one of Israel’s border crossings. The only reason Hamastan wants ships is because they can’t figure out how to smuggle larger missiles through their tunnels.

    How do I connect this with Leftism? Very easily. Both are belief systems which subordinate logic to rhetoric, which subscribe to an End-Times philosphy which will result in the universal adoption of their clearly superior form of government; both believe the ends justify the means; both are anti-democratic in nature (despite transparent protestations to the contrary); both use intimidation and violence to quell dissent and disagreement; both want the Marketplace of Ideas permanently closed.

    I think the British are probably the most bigoted, racist anti-Semites in Europe; the fact that Jews are beaten in the streets, that honor-killings are tolerated; that Moslem violence is brushed under the carpet; that crass antiSemitic remarks are acceptable across all streams of British society (which would “tut-tut” and “hear, hear” if you said the same thing about an Arab) just goes to prove how badly we Jews need a country of our own.

    Zionism is our intifada: after centuries of Christian and Moslem persecution and murder and theft and rape and expulsion, we have had enough. We are “throwing off” the role assigned us by the triumphalist Christian and Moslem societies. The world, briefly embarrassed by its acquiescence in the Holocaust, lived up to its long-overdue promise to Jewish farmers that if they fought for the Allies, they would, along with the Arabs, be given their own homeland. The fact that the Arabs wanted ALL instead of 80% of Palestine is due to Arab racism, irridentism and virulent hate. We are NOT going back to a world where we are routinely the victims of your racism and hatred. Israel is here to stay, and we will do what we need to do to protect our nation and our people.

    Israel doesn’t need an international probe. It’s the principle of the thing — if the US can bomb a terrorist and kill 30 civilians and no one calls for a probe; if Sri Lankan forces can shell a hospital full of civilians, and no one calls for them to submit to a probe; if North Korea and torpedo a South Korean ship, and no one calls for a probe; if Ahmadinijad can order the Bajlis thugs to murder unarmed civilians in the street, and no one calls for a probe; if Darfur is still a vast death camp, and no one is calling for a probe; if Turkey can indiscriminately slaughter Kurds in the name of internal security, and occupy and settle half of Cyprus for decades, and no one calls for a probe; and Russia levels whole communities in Chechnya and occupies part of Georgia without an international outcry…then no, Israel is not going to allow itself to be singled out for defending itself against hired jihadi mercenaries and the liberal naive fools who aid and abet them. Too bad they got shot but he who lives by the gun dies by the gun, and the evidence is incontrovertible that they shot first.

    Yes. You are a propagandist who cherry-picks facts (“Khaybar” is meaningless you suggest) and utters outright lies (they were “attacked by Israeli commandos”and just “defending themselves”–something that the videos taken even by the Turks has to get you laughed right off your soapbox) to justify your position.

    Gaza is not “impoverished” at all; the markets are full of food, as many photos will attest; journalists report a new public swimming pool and gourmet restaurants; if there are shortages, they are shortages deliberately enforced by Hamas (who routinely steals the gasoline for their SUVs, leaving the taxi-drivers and truckers without). There is rubble in Rafah — but even one of the “victims” complained to a newswoman that she was tired of leaving her home every day to sit on a pile of concrete to repeatedly tell the western press it was her home (it was not-it was an ammo dump).

    This is another hallmark of the Left that jibes with Fascism–the willing acceptance and reiteration of a propaganda narrative that is factually disproved but must be adopted to serve the “Cause.”

    I already addressed the weapons issue in an earlier post.

    I hope this answers your questions.

  18. twight
    Jun 06, 2010 @ 23:10:16

    You are long on rhetoric as well, aliyah. 🙂 I respect your opinion, but I don’t believe terms “fascism” and “leftism” just can be connected in some kind of logical sense – they’re too different.

    You said fascism is Gaza. You only see one side of the story! I’ll tell you what I think Gaza is – it’s the biggest prison on the earth. It’s is a desperate place full of desperate people with no future. All that because of Israeli illegal blockade and collective punishments. And remember, desperate people don’t think rationally, desperate people turn radical; no wonder why they support Hamas!

    Sure, thousands of tons of humanitarian aid goes into Gaza every week, but remember, only few items are among those merchants are allowed to trade. Mostly food, medicine and detergent. Almost everything else is forbidden – including building materials electric appliances, car parts, fabrics, needles, light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, clothing, shoes, mattresses, cups etc. It’s called collective punishment. I hope Obama and the UN will do something about it soon. And “ignorant people” like me really think Gaza should simply have an open border. But not because of the Scuds, but because of the Gazans who deserve better life. I see you Israelis have little or no empathy for suffering people in Gaza. Probably because of the anti-palestinian propaganda you’re keep listening all the time. By the way, those few gourmet restaurants you mentioned are there only because of all those tunnels.

    Next, you think the British are “the most bigoted, racist anti-Semites in Europe”? Oh my god! You probably also believe that all Germans are Nazis and that French people eat frogs for lunch. 🙂 I live in Europe and believe me, your words are far from truth. Islamophobia is just as big if not bigger problem as anti-semitism there. Stories about Jews being beaten in the streets and honor-killings are so silly I don’t even want to address. I wonder where do you read such a crap…

    You said “Israel is here to stay, and we will do what we need to do to protect our nation and our people”. Sure, you have every right to protect yourselves, but apparently Israel is more concerned about stealing more land and resources from the Palestinians than the lives and safety of Israelis. Israel is a state that continues to aggress against its neighbors. Settlements built after 1967 clearly violate international law.

    You’re wrong, Israel do need an international probe. The armed IDF boarded humanitarian aid ships from helicopters in international waters and killed 9 activists. You really don’t see anything wrong there? And by the way, did activists on the boats have some sort of duty to allow armed commandos to attack them without resistance?

  19. aliyah06
    Jun 07, 2010 @ 04:15:14

    “I don’t believe terms “fascism” and “leftism” just can be connected in some kind of logical sense – they’re too different.”

    You are of course entitled to your opinion. They’re not that different, in many analysts’ opinions. Fascism is not a property of the Right; it can occur in any politically motivated movement, and is endemic on the Left for the reasons I stated.

    “I wonder where do you read such a crap…”

    Times of London, The Telegraph, Jewish newspapers, personal accounts of people (most recently my stepdaughter who made the mistake of vacationing there a few months ago). Antisemitism was rife when she lived in England in the ’90s but it is about on the level of 1933 Germany right now.

    “You really don’t see anything wrong there?”

    No. International law permits both embargo and the interception of blockade-breaking entities in international waters. International law permits the interception of any ship thought to be carrying contraband on international waters.

    “did activists on the boats have some sort of duty to allow armed commandos to attack them without resistance?

    There you go again….the activists did not “attack” them. Go see the videos again. The ones getting attacked are the commandos. The usual fascist Left distortion of the truth for The Cause. You prove my point. Better yet, go read the Turkish papers, who crow about their attack on the Israeli commandos.

    “And remember, desperate people don’t think rationally, desperate people turn radical; no wonder why they support Hamas! ”

    More Lefty cant. First, they supported Hamas before the embargo. Hamas came to power and then staged a coup d’etat in 2007. Until then, the border crossings were open. Those crossings were routinely shelled by Hamas, by the way, in an effort to undermine Fatah and kill the Israeli truck drivers.

    “…All that because of Israeli illegal blockade and collective punishments.”

    Your concern for “collective punishment is totally hypocritical: missile barrages on Israeli civilians are also “collective punishment” but not one word from Hamas supporters like you during the 8 years those missiles fell. That’s because your hatred for Israel is your motivating factor, not “humanitarianism” as you try unsuccessfully to portray yourself here.

    Besides, this nonsensical rhetoric is so slipshod, so contrary to documented fact that it is laughable. If people are feeling desperate, it’s due to the fact that they are trapped by a fundamentalist oligarchy that stifles dissent with violence and murder; just this week journalists did pieces on how the average Gazan doesn’t benefit from the humanitarian aid because Hamas snatches it up and uses it to reward its stormtroopers and politicos.

    “And “ignorant people” like me really think Gaza should simply have an open border. But not because of the Scuds, but because of the Gazans who deserve better life. I see you Israelis have little or no empathy for suffering people in Gaza.”

    Actually, we have a lot of empathy for the Gazan Palestinians–many of whom we know and worked with prior to Hamas’ violent takeover. If we didn’t have that empathy, we would employ the tactics of Hezbollah–mass shelling (or carpet bombing). Which reminds me, where is your empathy for the thousands of Israeli civilians who were subjected to missile barrages from Hezbollah, which started that war with a cross-border invasion and attack? Oh, none? That’s right, Israelis don’t get empathy from Lefty fascists in love with Hamasnikim terrorists. Because you’re Jew-hating bigots, just like your Stalinist forebears.

    The people of Gaza will get a better life when they stop supporting the ideology of terror and genocide, and give up their war-mongering rhetoric. Until then, the embargo is necessary to protect our people — and the average Gazans desire to have open borders is understandable, but not when open borders will lead to mass murder, weapons smuggling and further endanger Israelis.

    IN the meantime, look around–there isn’t one country in conflict with another who has an “open border” with it; the Soviet Union was off limits to Westerners for decades; Saudi Arabia is building a wall to keep out Yemenis; China has already built a border fence to keep out starving North Koreans, who are allies; a call for “open borders” for a terror entity dedicated to killing us is insane.

    “I live in Europe…”

    I should have known. Thanks but I’ll take the word of friends and family who live and work there, and whose experiences corroborate the wide-spread bigotry and demonization of Jews over an anonymous blogger with a Red-Green ax to grind. But then, that’s European culture for you–arts and music as the gilding of the ages, a Baroque prettiness laid over the seething, violent racism of your continental psyche. A continent that is a Jewish graveyard because of ingrained Jew-hatred, taught to you by your religious institutions and your racist forebears.

    Come live in Sderot for a year. Then you’ll have some credibility.

  20. twight
    Jun 07, 2010 @ 11:11:31

    “Antisemitism was rife when she lived in England in the ’90s but it is about on the level of 1933 Germany right now.”

    You don’t realize you sound paranoid, do you aliya? Germany in 1933? Hahaha. You obviously believe all the stereotypes you hear. Must Jews always see themselves as victims? I’m sure there may have been some cases of anti-semitism (especially after number of Israel’s agressions in the last year) and I’m sorry if your relatives have had some bad experience, but that doesn’t mean the whole country (or Europe) is anti-semitic. I know people from Britain too. And by the way, the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe since the Gaza crisis should not be surprising. Israel feeds feelings of anti-Semitism itself.

    You know what’s your (and Israel’s) problem? Lack of self-criticism. No factor endangers Israel’s future more than self-righteousness. It’s funny – the moment I mentioned that British PM criticized Israel’s Gaza flotilla raid (again, Britain is not an enemy of Israel) you went on a rant about how “anti-semitic” nation Britain is. You didn’t even think on a possibility that Israel may have made a mistake or that its commandos are responsible for those killings. That’s not your style. If I tell you that Nicolas Sarkozy also made an appeal in a phone call to Israeli PM to accept international inquiry of the incident I’m sure you will soon be accusing France to be anti-semtitic nation as well.

    “…the activists did not “attack” them. Go see the videos again. The ones getting attacked are the commandos.”

    So in your opinion those commandos came to tea? Do you wanna say the IDF boarded humanitarian aid ships from helicopters in international waters and people on board didn’t greet them with flowers??? So if someone resists a home invasion it’s their fault??

    By the way, if those activists really were “terrorists” and jihadist who came to kill people why didn’t they kill those 3 Israeli commandos they captured and disarmed?

    You don’t get it. It’s not just about Israel. The world can’t and should not tolerate the policies of blockade against Gaza, the policies of punishment and the policy of attacking civilians in international sea. If Iran attacked civilians in international sea the world would react very similar, only this time you would be condemning it as well, because it would be about Iran, not Israel. Face it.

    I must repeat: desperate people don’t think rationally, desperate people turn radical. That’s why Hamas won the election and that’s why it’s still popular among Palestinians. Your thoughts about “fundamentalist oligarchy that stifles dissent with violence and murder” are useless if you ignore the fact that Palestinians are still living under Israel’s occupation. It’s Israel who makes their life miserable, not Hamas.

    Face it, the point of the blockade was to inflict misery on Gaza in order to turn them against their elected government. Even you said that “The people of Gaza will get a better life when they stop supporting the ideology of terror and genocide…” But this act of collective punishment designed to turn Gazans against their government didn’t and it’s not working. By the way, missile barrages on Israeli civilians are not “collective punishment”. Rocket attacks are surely an act of war, and Israel has a right to defend itself. The problem is that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is also an act of war, and Palestinians have the same right of self-defense.

    “IN the meantime, look around–there isn’t one country in conflict with another who has an “open border” with it”

    Your examples are not good, because there’s no occupation and resistance as it is in Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    “That’s right, Israelis don’t get empathy from Lefty fascists in love with Hamasnikim terrorists. Because you’re Jew-hating bigots, just like your Stalinist forebears.”

    Let’s not start insulting everyone who doesn’t agree with you, ok? It seems you’ve run out of arguments already. But let’s try to keep it civil. I’m not “lefty fascist” nor terror supporter, so stop with those stupid comments. Condemning Israel for murdering activists or bombing innocent people in Gaza does not equal support for Hamas… I got it, one can’t criticize Israel without being tagged as an anti-Semite or Hamas supporter, right?

    The last part of your reply (about Europe) is only telling me I was right about you and your stereotypes. I am starting to feel pity for you.

    “Come live in Sderot for a year.”
    Not thanks, I have no such intentions. But you should go and live in Gaza for a year (if that was possible) and I’m sure you’d change your opinion about it.

  21. aliyah06
    Jun 07, 2010 @ 15:51:16

    1. You don’t realize you sound paranoid, do you aliya? Germany in 1933? Hahaha. You obviously believe all the stereotypes you hear.

    It seems I’m not paranoid, just better informed than you are. The Guardian spoke of “an unprecedented rise in antisemitic incidents against Jews. Over the six-month period, the 609 incidents break down into 77 violent assaults, 63 desecrations of Jewish communal property, 34 direct antisemitic threats, 391 incidents of abusive behaviour and 44 cases of mass antisemitic mail-outs.” The Telegraph just penned an article entitled, “Anti-Semitism ‘worst since 1936’. If you do a little more reading, you’ll find similar news articles. While you are at it, you might look up “Ilan Halimi” and educate yourself a bit.

    It appears that you are either sadly ignorant or in complete denial.

    2. You know what’s your (and Israel’s) problem? Lack of self-criticism.

    Anyone who engages in debate and discussion here in Israel, reads our press or watches our news shows will fall down in hysterical laughter at this statement.

    3. Israel feeds feelings of anti-Semitism itself.

    Another excellent example of illogical, rhetorical flourish that supports what you want reality to be in order to justify your Cause of advancing the genocidal aims of Hamas. Unfortunately, anti-Semitism is a well-documented form of European bigotry which has been in existence long before the State of Israel was born, so you have wholly inverted cause and effect.

    4. You didn’t even think on a possibility that Israel may have made a mistake or that its commandos are responsible for those killings.

    On the contrary, I said quite clearly that Israel did make a mistake: we should have sunk the ship rather than put soldiers’ lives at risk. But no, the commandos aren’t “responsible” for the killings in the sense that you use that word, meaning to be blamed. Self-defense against deadly force is legitimate once the other party has resorted to deadly force, which your jihadi mercenaries did when they clubbed, stabbed and shot the first soldiers on deck.

    5. ….you will soon be accusing France to be anti-semtitic nation as well.

    J’accuse. France is an extremely anti-Semitic nation, with more incidents of physical attacks on Jews of all ages than any other European country. See “Ilan Halimi” above for details.

    6. So in your opinion those commandos came to tea? Do you wanna say the IDF boarded humanitarian aid ships from helicopters in international waters and people on board didn’t greet them with flowers??? So if someone resists a home invasion it’s their fault??

    Engaging blockade runners in international waters is legal. The blockade itself is legal. I’m not going to keep belaboring a legal point that everyone except hysterical Leftists seems to understand. A little legal research would make clear you are beating a dead horse here.

    Sarcasm is a rhetorical flourish indicating desperation; note that of the other ships that were intercepted, there was NO violence. The fact that 6 other ships have been boarded without violence only proves that your jihadi mercenary ship was not a group of “peace activists.”

    And since you appear fond of the “home invasion” simile, I will join you in that….if you help my neighbors to firebomb my house on a daily basis, you shouldn’t be surprised when I stop your car carrying groceries for them, which has in the past carried more firebombing material, because YOU are aiding and abetting the destruction of MY home.

    7. By the way, if those activists really were “terrorists” and jihadist who came to kill people why didn’t they kill those 3 Israeli commandos they captured and disarmed?

    According to the interviews in the Turkish and Arab papers, they hoped to hold them for ransom like Gilad Shalit—whose continued detention is an on-going violation of the Geneva Convention, international law and an act of war in itself. He was kidnapped from Israel proper and is refused Red Cross visits or communication with the outside world. Your Gaza-bound mercenary fleet, sanctimonious in its chorus of “human rights” and claims of international humanitarianism, refused to do anything to help the Shalits win their son’s release.

    8. If Iran attacked civilians in international sea the world would react very similar, only this time you would be condemning it as well, because it would be about Iran, not Israel.

    Iran has. Iran has also invaded and taken over territory of Bahrain, transforming it into a military base and disregarding Bahrain’s protestations over its sovereignty being violated. Iran also guns down unarmed peaceful demonstrators demanding an honest election in the streets. The world has hardly noticed Iran’s trespasses against international law and human rights.

    Hamas is an Iranian military base, funded and supplied by Iran. Look up “Karine A” for details.

    9. I must repeat: desperate people don’t think rationally, desperate people turn radical. That’s why Hamas won the election and that’s why it’s still popular among Palestinians. Your thoughts about “fundamentalist oligarchy that stifles dissent with violence and murder” are useless if you ignore the fact that Palestinians are still living under Israel’s occupation.

    a. Hamas won the election before the blockade began, so Israel’s embargo had nothing to do with the radicalization of Gazan Arabs. The Moslem Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a part, had been indoctrinating the population as part of their desire to establish an Islamic state engaged in jihad for a generation.

    b. Israel doesn’t occupy one square inch of Gaza. The fact that we close our border is our right, just as it is the right of any sovereign nation to close its border. We embargo Gaza to prevent the smuggling of weaponry. We send plenty of non-military items through the borders every day. Egypt also has offered to allow international aid to come through Alexandria—but that offer has been refused because it doesn’t serve the agit-prop agenda of the Islamists and their fascist Left tools, which is to engineer a confrontation with Israel.

    10. The people of Gaza will get a better life when they stop supporting the ideology of terror and genocide…” But this act of collective punishment designed to turn Gazans against their government didn’t and it’s not working.

    It isn’t collective punishment. Embargoing war materials is a legitimate act of self-defense which will be unnecessary once the Gazans decide that an eternal war of conquest against anyone who doesn’t fit their idea of proper Islamic adherents, especially Jews, isn’t their raison d’etre. As soon as they decide to be part of the community of nations, renounce terror, accept prior peace accords, and recognize Israel, the embargo has no further use.

    11. Your examples are not good, because there’s no occupation and resistance as it is in Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    Wrong again on two counts: first, there is no “occupation” of Gaza by Israel. Second, take another look at some of those conflicts. Greece and Turkey, for example, have been at war for decades over Cypress, and have a separation fence running the length of the island. North and South Korea have no open borders for the same reason.

    12. Let’s not start insulting everyone who doesn’t agree with you, ok?

    That wasn’t an insult, merely an observation. Calling a racist a racist is hardly an insult—it’s just a statement of fact.

    13. Condemning Israel for murdering activists or bombing innocent people in Gaza does not equal support for Hamas.

    Sure it does. Who do you think you’re fooling. Even your statement is rich with mendacity: Israel didn’t “murder” any “activists” – Israelis faced with deadly force by armed mercenaries fired in self-defense. Israel doesn’t, contrary to the Palestinians who boast of doing it, “bomb innocent people” – Israel is the only country I know of which dropped leaflets and made phone calls to try to minimize civilian casualties. Your friends the British hardly go to such trouble in Afghanistan….

    14. The last part of your reply (about Europe) is only telling me I was right about you and your stereotypes….

    Stereotypes? You really are in denial. European racism, bigotry and treatment of minorities is not only unsurpassed in viciousness in the last several centuries, but exceedingly well-documented.

    15. “Come live in Sderot for a year.”Not thanks, I have no such intentions. But you should go and live in Gaza for a year (if that was possible) and I’m sure you’d change your opinion about it.

    Yes, you wouldn’t want to see the civilians of Sderot, their bombed homes, their traumatized families, their children who have to go to school in bunkers and play in yards equipped with make-shift bomb-shelters because of Hamastani rocket attacks. That might lessen your passion for your obscene cause, and help you understand why Israel continues its embargo of Gaza so more weaponry isn’t funneled there.

    Gaza? Sure—I’d love to eat at their gourmet restaurants, visit the beaches, catch the nightlife, all of which I understand from journalist friends is great. See the new villas built by Hamas for its apparatchiks, replacing the old villas built by Fatah for its apparatchiks, while the “refugees” are still kept huddled in squalid camps to keep hate alive….yes, I’d love to visit the heart of darkness you call Gaza, a corrupt and cynical oligarchy preying on its own population, robbing its people of their future in order to stay in power and get gobs of UN and EU money with which to line their pockets.

    Unfortunately, Gaza, like all fascist anti-Semitic genocidal states, is Judenrein — no Jews are allowed. They’re murdering the few Christians who are hanging on….So until Gaza drops its official policy of warmongering, hatred and bigotry, it’s hardly possible to visit.

  22. twight
    Jun 08, 2010 @ 09:01:21

    I have to respond 🙂

    1. “It seems I’m not paranoid, just better informed than you are.”

    I don’t think so, I read European news daily. The difference between us is that I don’t take all news so deadly serious. The fact is that both, anti-semitism and Islamophobia have been rising across Europe from times to times. But in my opinion you are little too paranoid, just like many other Jews seem to be. This is best illustrated by the joke that circulated a few years ago, about “Shit happens” as explained by the different theologies or points of view. It went something like that: “Islam: Shit happens, because it is the will of Allah. Protestant: Shit happens, but Jesus loves you. JEWISH: Shit happens, but why is it always happening TO US?” 🙂

    Yes, Israel actually feeds (the latest rise of) anti-semitism itself. Let me explain. Of course anti-Semitism has been in existence long before the State of Israel was born, nobody’s denying that. I was talking about the latest anti-semitic and anti-israel feelings all across the Europe (and the rest of world). British Telegraph, for instance, has been reporting that anti-semitic attacks in Britain have doubled in 2009, prompted by Israel’s invasion of Gaza. See my point now? Moreover, I think that if there was no occupation and no Israeli agressions (resulting in dead civilians), those anti-Semitic feelings and incidents would immidiately be reduced.

    2. Lack of self-criticism. “Anyone who engages in debate and discussion here in Israel, reads our press or watches our news shows will fall down in hysterical laughter at this statement.”

    I don’t believe you. Yehoshafat Harkabi – the longest serving Israeli Director of Military Intelligence – wrote the following wonderful statements (inside his book Israel’s Fateful Hour):
    “Certainly Israel is not guilty of everything that has gone wrong in the occupied lands. But SELF-CRITICISM is imperative in order to counter-balance the tendencies to self-righteousness and SELF-PITY that stem from basic Jewish attitudes, from the historical experience of persecution, and from the ethos fostered by Menachem Begin. No factor endangers Israel’s future more than self-righteousness, which blinds us to reality, prevents a complex understanding of the situation, and LEGITIMIZES extreme behavior.” Again, this was written by a Jew!

    4. “On the contrary, I said quite clearly that Israel did make a mistake: we should have sunk the ship rather than put soldiers’ lives at risk.”

    If that’s the way you think then it’s no wonder why there’s no peace in the Middle East. That’s right, kill, sink, bomb… that’s your plan for reaching peace? In the operation Cast Lead, when the kill ratio was 100-to-1 in the favour of the Israel and the destruction ratio was much greater than that, Israel claimed it was the real victim in the Gaza War. It sounded like a bad joke. But for once people identify themselves as victims above all else, then perhaps anything, including assassination, becomes justifiable. And that’s a big problem.

    5. Just as I expected. 🙂 France is “extremely anti-Semitic nation”? You’re either very paranoid or brainwashed. Just to let you know, France has the biggest Muslim and Jewish communities in Europe and Sarcozy is seen as a very pro-Israel leader in Europe. I even read somewhere that it is more difficult in France to be a Muslim than to be a Jew.

    6. You sound like Gaza is just a bunch of radicals who attack Israel on daily basis. You don’t see the civilians who are living in the biggest prison in the world. You don’t mention there’s been almost no deadly rocket attacks from Gaza in the whole year now. You don’t mention the activists wanted to help Gazans, not Hamas.

    7. I don’t believe everything those newspaper say. The fact remain: they had a chance to kill those Israeli commandos they captured and disarmed, but they didn’t.

    8. Oh, so in Iran there were only “unarmed peaceful demonstrators” (by the way, some of they were armed with stones and sticks) while the activists on those ships were violent “jihadists”?

    9.a “Hamas won the election before the blockade began, so Israel’s embargo had nothing to do with the radicalization of Gazan Arabs.”

    You don’t get it. Palestinians have been living impoverished lives with violated human rights for decades. They have been oppressed from generation to generation and they were desperate way before the Gaza elections. One of the reasons Palestinians chose Hamas is because of Israel actions and because of corruption scandals in the Fatah.

    “Israel doesn’t occupy one square inch of Gaza”

    The assertion that Israel has ended its occupation is extremely debatable. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Israel controls Gaza’s northern and eastern BORDER crossings, its ACCESS to the SEA, and its AIRSPACE. Israel has also shut down Gaza’s port and destroyed its airport, and controls the flow of electricity and oil, food and medicine, and even MONEY into the territory. People say that Israel “withdrew” from Gaza as though Gaza had been left autonomous and independent and free from Israeli control. Quite the opposite is truth.

    10. “It isn’t collective punishment. Embargoing war materials is a legitimate act of self-defense which will be unnecessary once the Gazans decide that an eternal war of conquest against anyone who doesn’t fit their idea of proper Islamic adherents…”

    You should see the list of items that are refused to enter Gaza. The UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees Unrwa’s list of household items that have been refused entry at various times includes light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, clothing, shoes, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner. (source: BBC)
    “War materials” indeed…

    11. “Wrong again on two counts: first, there is no “occupation” of Gaza by Israel. Second, take another look at some of those conflicts. Greece and Turkey, for example, have been at war for decades over Cypress, and have a separation fence running the length of the island.”

    I’m wrong? Again, claims that Israel has ended its occupation is at least debatable. Gaza has no autonomy and is dependent on UN food aid and Israel. And they’re still “at war” with Israel with victims on both sides. We could not claim the same for none of your examples.

    12. I see. Well, two can play that game. So please don’t be upset if I say you’re brainwashed and that you live in denial. It’s an observation, not insult.

    13. “Sure it does.”
    No it doesn’t. I’m not buying that Bush’s era crap (Whoever is not with us is against us). Besides, many Jews all over the world are criticize Israel’s politics andoppose illegal settlements, collective punishments and the blockade of Gaza, but it doesn’t make them Hamas supporters, because they still love the state of Israel.

    14. I live in EU and I can tell you that the situation is not that bad as you may think. I’m not saying there’s no problems, though.

    15. Do your children really have to go to school in bunkers?

    “Gaza? Sure—I’d love to eat at their gourmet restaurants, visit the beaches, catch the nightlife, all of which I understand from journalist friends is great.”

    You don’t realize how arrogant and silly you sound. Israelis really have little empathy for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza. Now it’s time for reality check: according to AI, “Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid.” and “Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.” That’s the reality.

  23. aliyah06
    Jun 08, 2010 @ 19:18:05

    1. 1. “It seems I’m not paranoid, just better informed than you are.”

    I don’t think so, I read European news daily. The difference between us is that I don’t take all news so deadly serious. The fact is that both, anti-semitism and Islamophobia have been rising across Europe from times to times. But in my opinion you are little too paranoid, just like many other Jews seem to be.

    What an amazing concatenation of nonsense. I’m so glad for you that you read European news daily. So do I, and catch it on cable also. Maybe I take it more seriously than you do because unlike Islamophobia, antiSemitism has a history of being fatal. That’s not paranoia–that’s distrust of your allegedly humanitarian intentions, which when coupled with Europe’s history of antiSemitism and your governments’ and NGOs and unions enthusiastic vilification of all things Israeli, is a logical response.

    2. Moreover, I think that if there was no occupation and no Israeli agressions (resulting in dead civilians), those anti-Semitic feelings and incidents would immidiately be reduced.

    What part of occupation don’t you understand? There is no “occupation” of Gaza, however you wish to mince facts. “Occupation” of another is defined by law, and Israel’s border closings and embargo do not make an occupation. As for the “occupation” of the West Bank, one can only “occupy” a sovereign nation–and there isn’t one there (yet). In the meantime, what you have is indeterminate borders of disputed territory, and under teh Geneva Convention, there is no “occupation” until and unless there are agreed upon borders and THEN Israel refuses to move Israelis out of the new state’s borders, despite Lefty chants of “occupation.”

    Moving on–using force to maintain an embargo is lawful, not an act of aggression. There are no dead civilians that anyone is aware of….there are dead mercenaries recruited and paid to wage jihad (according to al Jazeera and Turkish news–hardly pro_Istael voices).

    3. “I don’t believe you.” Come visit. I’ll show you.

    Now why would I exchange the experience of current events for the selective writings of a pragmatic Leftist dove who wrote this about his current society decades ago? The man is dead! How would he know what current Israeli society and debate is about?

    4. “If that’s the way you think then it’s no wonder why there’s no peace in the Middle East. That’s right, kill, sink, bomb…”

    As opposed to “Kill the Jews” and unremitting war initiated repeatedly by the Arab axis? Endless incitement to hatred, genocide, religious triumphalism and irridentist nationalism pours out of Gaza and the West Bank and their supporters daily….and you think ISRAEL is the problem.

    The majority of Israelis are in favor of two states–one Jewish, one Arab (which was where we were in 1948, except the Arabs rejected it)….the moderates of Fatah can’t bring themselves to say “Jewish state” per the original UN resolution, so every time negotiations bog down, we know its because the Arabs still hope to dismantle Israel and educate their children to hate.

    The civilian casualties in Gaza (which were greatly exaggerated, no, not exaggerate, just outright lied about, by the Left) were sad, but since Israel builds reinforced “safe rooms” and bomb shelters with its concrete for its people, and Gaza’s concrete was devoted to command bunkers and its people were left on the streets as human shields for kassam crews (who often deliberately set up next to civilian emplacements) its no surprise that some civilians died.

    5. France?

    Well before the military operation in Gaza, back in 2004, France was undergoing a spasm of antiSemitism: “A new wave of anti-Semitism is an extremely worrisome phenomenon that poses a threat to the fabric of French society, according to a government report. The 50-page report, ordered up by Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin and drawn by the writer Jean-Christophe Rufin, said anti-Semitism in France was not restricted to people of Arab origin, Muslims and the far right, and it proposed keeping a closer watch on racism in the media and in schools and creating a national watchdog to monitor anti-Semitism. ” This is a FRENCH report, not something based on paranoia…and its become worse. I notice you didn’t look up Ilan Halimi….

    6. “You sound like Gaza is just a bunch of radicals who attack Israel on daily basis.” Well, almost daily. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010 for a list

    “You don’t see the civilians who are living in the biggest prison in the world.” Sure I do. I read the Palestinian news and watch television–I probably have a better idea of what goes on in Gaza daily than you do. And do stop the rhetoric “the biggest prison in the world.” A prison means someone has no means of egress–the Palestinians do. Renounce terror, recognize Israel, honor prior peace agreements instead of monging for war and genocide. You’re not in “prison” if you’re holding the keys.

    “You don’t mention there’s been almost no deadly rocket attacks from Gaza in the whole year now.” I see. The fatal attack on March 18 has escaped your notice, or did not enough people die for you to remark upon it?

    “You don’t mention the activists (I assume you mean the non-jihadi mercenaries in the ships) wanted to help Gazans, not Hamas.” Nonsense. If they wanted to help Gazans, they would have brought better medicine instead of throw away garbage that was already expired; they would deliver more and better quality items to Alexandria and/or Ashdod, where it could be examined for armaments and then sent on. The whole point was political theatre and provocation. It has NOTHING to do with helping Gaza.

    7. “I don’t believe everything those newspaper say. The fact remain: they had a chance to kill those Israeli commandos they captured and disarmed, but they didn’t. ”

    Thank you — a splendid example of Lefty thinking. You will pick and choose, and only choose to believe what supports your Cause and deny and denigrate any facts that undermine it. Even Turkish or Arab-published facts.

    9. “Palestinians have been living impoverished lives with violated human rights for decades. They have been oppressed from generation to generation and they were desperate way before the Gaza elections. One of the reasons Palestinians chose Hamas is because of Israel actions and because of corruption scandals in the Fatah.”

    The chain of cause and effect here is ridiculous. Palestinian Arabs were oppressed by the Ottoman Empire for years, same as the Jews; they were then oppressed, but less so, under the British colonial regime, just like the Jews; they were then oppressed in the WB and Gaza by the dictatorial regimes of Jordan and Egypt. Israel took Gaza in 1967 and built settlements. The settlements were all on lands that had previously been Jewish villages (ethnically cleansed by the Egyptians) or were barren. We made hothouse gardens and grew fruits and vegetables. Until the Tunisian Occupation began, Gaza was occupied by Israel on the land-for-peace plan, except that the Khartoum Conference and its Arab League backers made sure that there was no peace or recognition or negotiation for decades. Then Arafat’s corrupt thugs followed by Hamas’s corrupt thugs has oppressed and terrorized the Gazans since 1993. So out of centuries of oppression and repression by various Arab thugocracies, the years of Israeli occupation are solely responsible for Palestinian anger and despair?

    Hardly. That’s what their propaganda corps keeps drumming into the masses and naifs of the Left but history tells a factual tale quite different.

    “The assertion that Israel has ended its occupation is extremely debatable.” No, its not. You keep ignoring what I’m saying: occupation is defined by law. It is not subject to rhetorical word games. Gaza has a border with Egypt as well, which Israel has no control over. There are no Israeli soldiers in Gaza — except the one the Palestinians kidnapped and continue to hold in violation of international law. There is NO occupation of Gaza. We don’t “control the northern and eastern borders of Gaza” — we control Israel’s borders and have every right to do so.

    10. “You should see the list of items that are refused to enter Gaza. The UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees Unrwa’s list of household items that have been refused entry at various times includes light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, clothing, shoes, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner. (source: BBC)
    “War materials” indeed…

    OK, I’ll bite. Show me that list. Because I have lists also of the literally thousands of tons of items that are let through, as well as quotes from aid workers indicating that the warehouses in Gaza are full, and pictures of fully stocked markets and stores, and this week’s statement by the PA’s Azzam al-Ahmed that there is NO humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

    11.”Gaza has no autonomy and is dependent on UN food aid and Israel.

    Gaza has no autonomy because instead of making itself into the Singapore of the Mediterranean, Gaza chose to build itself into an Iranian/EU/UN welfare state acting as a forward military base in the Islamist world’s war to destroy Israel rather than developing its agricultural industry and tourism. Their choice, not ours.

    13. “Sure it does.”
    No it doesn’t. I’m not buying that Bush’s era crap (Whoever is not with us is against us).

    Hardly “Bush-era.” In prior wars, those who supported the Fascists were known as collaborators. That’s what you are–collaborators with a genocidal regime.

    “Besides, many Jews all over the world are criticize Israel’s politics and oppose illegal settlements, collective punishments and the blockade of Gaza, but it doesn’t make them Hamas supporters, because they still love the state of Israel.”

    You don’t see the difference between criticizing a policy and openly supporting a regime bent on war? Sad.
    However, there is law on this also — when one, however civilian in dress, engages in a hostile act in a closed military zone, that act or acts may cause one to shed the “civilian” designation and you become an enemy combatant. THAT is why if your little vicarious outlaw friends on the Left decide to run their ships into the closed military zone around Gaza, Israel can legitimately sink them–because they are no longer civilians, having engaged in hostilities.

    14. “I live in EU and I can tell you that the situation is not that bad as you may think. I’m not saying there’s no problems, though.”

    I have Moslem, Arab & Iranian, friends who live in Europe. They tell me its every bit as bad as it has always been.

    15. “according to AI, “Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid.” and “Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.” That’s the reality.”

    Not according to the Palestinians (see above quote). Not according to the UN: “United Nations Middle East envoy Robert Serry, who met with President Shimon Peres in Jerusalem (Feb 2010), said, “There is no humanitarian problem in Gaza.” He went on to say that building materials (metal and concrete, also used to build Hamas bunkers) were in short supply — but a lack of concrete is not a humanitarian cris9s.

    On the other hand, 600 Darfur refugees were butchered last month and are short of food and water daily. Where is your outrage? Where is your “Free Darfur” caravan to those people?

    See, it’s not about being a humanitarian — its about hating Israel.

  24. twight
    Jun 09, 2010 @ 11:31:37

    1. I see your point, aliyah. No hard feelings, but in my opinion you’re little too suspicious and distrustful. I don’t see it as a “a logical response”. NGOs all over the world are criticizing all the governments and regimes in the world and Israel is not an exception. Only when and if those NGOs (or anybody else) criticize Israel, there seems to be problems. You probably think R. Goldstone is “anti-semite” as well.

    Do you wanna know why do I think you’re paranoid and why I criticize your lack of self criticism? Just listen to you: I mentioned British PM condemned Israel’s Gaza flotilla raid and economic blockade and you went “British are probably the most bigoted, racist anti-Semites in Europe”. WTF? Is that’s the only way you can explain it to yourself? Then I told you Sarkozy asked Israeli PM to accept international inquiry of the incident and your response was “France is an extremely anti-Semitic nation, with more incidents of physical attacks on Jews of all ages than any other European country”. That was your response! I would have thought we were talking about countries like Syria, Iran or Saudi Arabia but… Britain and France? What if Obama condemned the raid? Would you say Americans are anti-semites and Israeli enemies as well? Or would you just attack Obama personally and try to portray him as pro-Muslim?

    How many times have you accepted your own mistakes and learnt from them, rather than thinking the whole world is against you?

    2. “There is no “occupation” of Gaza, however you wish to mince facts.”
    Right. Maybe the “occupation” really is not the best word to describe it, but tell me: did Israel leave Gaza autonomous, independent and free from Israeli control? Who control Gaza’s airspace and sea? Who controls Gaza’s economy? The answer is obvious.

    3. I’ve already told you what I think about it. And yes, Harkabi may be dead and he wrote the book decades ago, but I think Israel hasn’t changed a bit since then. The occupation is still there, the conflits has not been resolved yet and most of arab countries still haven’t recognise Israel. Again, this man was not some poet or random writer, he was a Director of Military Intelligence! Now, I don’t want you to think it’s only about Israel. There is a lack of self criticism in the Arab world as well. It’s just that we’re discussing Israel now.

    4. “…and you think ISRAEL is the problem”
    I think Israel is a PART of the problem. It takes two to tango.

    As for civilian casualties in Gaza, if you think most of them were just “human shields” and that IDF did nothing wrong, then I think you don’t see the truth. Firing missiles from the air into one of the most crowded place on earth is a recipe for killing innocents, isn’t it? What about bombing of 100 industrial factories, including the only flour-producing facility and a substantial part of the egg-producing industry? What about reports about white phosphorous and other war crimes? We could discuss op Case Lead for month.

    6. “You’re not in “prison” if you’re holding the keys.”
    I like that statement, but I don’t think it’s Gazans who’re holding the keys…

    “I see. The fatal attack on March 18 has escaped your notice, or did not enough people die for you to remark upon it?”
    I said ALMOST no deadly rocket attacks.

    “The whole point was political theatre and provocation. It has NOTHING to do with helping Gaza.”
    I don’t think so. It might have been sort of provocation, but with a reason. It will help Gaza, because the leaders and media all around the world are now discussing Gaza blockede and condemning it. The pressure on Israel is rising and that’s good for Gazans.

    7. “You will pick and choose, and only choose to believe what supports your Cause and deny and denigrate any facts that undermine it.”
    Same goes for you. By the way, if you’re really that interested in arab press, you can read this interesting report by Jamal Elshayyal:
    http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/06/kidnapped-israel-forsaken-britain

    “Two helicopters at a time hovered above the vessel. Commandos on board the choppers joined the firing, using live ammunition, before any of the soldiers had descended onto the ship. Two unarmed civilians were killed just metres away from me. Dozens of unarmed civilians were injured right before my eyes…”

    “Masked Israeli soldiers and commandos took me from international waters. Uniformed Israeli officials locked me behind bars. The Israeli government stole my passport. The Israeli government stole my lap top, two cameras, 3 phones, $1500 and all my possessions.”

    10. “Show me that list”
    BBC report (with the pdf document inside): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
    Haaretz report: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/amira-hass-israel-bans-books-music-and-clothes-from-entering-gaza-1.276147

    11. Gazans were sick of Fatah and Israel’s agressions and have thus elected Hamas. By the way, it was the U.S. and the UN that called for elections in Gaza. I remember a great title I saw some years ago: We Want Democracy as Long as Hamas Doesn’t Win. Too late. 🙂

    Anyway, since the election of Hamas, Israel has used all the power to place Gaza under a state of siege resulting in dire humanitarian conditions in an already impoverished region. As a punishment for Gazans who voted for Hamas but also for those who didn’t. And you think it’s fair.

    13. Please, tell me where and when did I say I support “genocidal regime” or radical groups like Hamas. Or where did I say I hate Israel. I’m really curious.

    15. So you think AI is making those numbers up?

    You’re wrong. I wish I could help Darfur. I wish I could help all the people who’re suffering. The conflict in Darfur presents a very complex situation with very complex problems. There are just so many different tribal groups, so many interests involved that it’s difficult to do anything if you’re not some very strong regional force. I agree that media don’t cover the issue of Darfur as much as it should. But it doesn’t change the fact that people in Gaza are suffering as well. What’s wrong with sending aid to Gaza?

  25. westbankmama
    Jun 10, 2010 @ 14:17:08

    aliyah06 – boy, I am glad you are on our side!!! I admire your patience and your erudition…

  26. aliyah06
    Jun 11, 2010 @ 13:50:59

    I don’t think Goldstone is an antiSemite; I think he is either a fool or an opportunist. If you think that the Goldstone Report, composed by members of a kangaroo court who prior to their mission to Gaza had already pronounced that Israel did not have a right of self-defense against Hamastan’s rockets; who ignored British military evidence about Israel’s attempts to minimize civilian casualties; who ignored totally or gave short shift to Israeli civilian testimonies; who categorically denied, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that Hamas did not use mosques as ammo dumps; who escorted the mission everywhere and cherry-picked the “witnesses” with whom they were to speak in front of Hamas operatives, is an unbiased investigation, then you are as big a fool as Goldstone. The report reeks with inconsistencies and lies, and is nothing more than a political lynching, which is why the Far Left has rushed to embrace it.

    I frankly don’t care why you think I’m paranoid and lack self-critical analysis. Your analysis is flawed itself when my comments on certain European cultures, which you invited, and which are fact and experience and history based, are simply dismissed by you as untrue and paranoid. Such arrogant dismissal is only to be expected from a racist European elitist who disdains the opinions and experiences of others when they don’t fit his/her Weltanschaung.

    I live in this country. You don’t. I am exposed daily to the self-critical comments of Israelis across all spectrums of society. For you to sit in your European arrogance in a distant land and dismiss that evidence solely because you, as the European, “know” it’s not so, is a form of intellectual neo-colonialism typical of arrogant Left wing intellectuals.

    We have learned from our mistakes. Compromise has been met with rejection; land-for-peace has resulted in forward military bases on our southern and northern borders. UN promises are worthless (1967 and the Lebanese border). We have learned that we need to defend ourselves and not rely on the supposed good-will of fair-weather friends who panic at the slightest increase in the price of a barrel of oil. We have learned to be hard-nosed in bargaining positions, which in the Middle Eastern milieu is respected, rather than eager to please, which is despised.

    “did Israel leave Gaza autonomous, independent and free from Israeli control? ” The Hamas putsch and the intifada are factors you blatantly ignore. We would leave Gaza free and independent rather than risk our population in quelling their warmongering actions if Gaza would become a part of the family of nations and renounce terror, recognize the state of Israel and agree to abide by the peace agreements, limited though they are, that are in place already instead of firing rockets and mortars, kidnapping Gilad Shalit and indoctrinating their young in the virtue of genocide. You are confusing cause and effect–without the war urged by the Arab world since 1948, none of Israel’s actions against the Palestinians and their state backers would be necessary.

    “And yes, Harkabi may be dead and he wrote the book decades ago, but I think Israel hasn’t changed a bit since then.”

    How would you know since you apparently have never lived here and don’t plan to visit? Absent experience, this is just your personal opinion based on, apparently, nothing. Do you apeak or read Hebrew? How can you even listen to the news or read the papers, journals, studies and op-eds. Go take a look at Bitter Lemons or even Ha’Aretz in English–you’ll find plenty of self-criticism. You’ve cited to Amira Haas, so I know you can find Ha’Aretz online….

    “6. “You’re not in “prison” if you’re holding the keys.”
    I like that statement, but I don’t think it’s Gazans who’re holding the keys…”

    It’s moot now–Egypt has opened its border with Gaza and has announced it will keep it open. You can run all the aid your little heart desires to Gaza via Alexandria port…..although, interestingly enough, the Gazans don’t want that. Just this morning a Gaza spokesman said the Gaza business community would prefer that aid and trade continue to go through Ashdod–you see, Gazans as individuals (not the nut cases running the jihad) are pragmatic businessmen, and Gaza gets a tax break by going through Ashdod.

    This is why Tony Blair is correct about one thing–the bottom line is economics, and if the economy and trade and tax-break zone of Gaza and the West Bank continue to thrive, the common Palestinian in the street, like his Israeli counterpart, will be more interested in the economic well being of his family and his kids’ future than in waging jihad.

    “Anyway, since the election of Hamas, Israel has used all the power to place Gaza under a state of siege resulting in dire humanitarian conditions in an already impoverished region. As a punishment for Gazans who voted for Hamas but also for those who didn’t. And you think it’s fair.”

    Hardly. It hasn’t been “since the election of Hamas”– it’s been since the Islamist putsch. The treaty Israel had regarding the border crossings was with the Palestinian Authority. After its coup d-etat, Hamas declined to recognize Israel, and the PA was no longer in control of the borders since their police were either dead, exiled, fled or co-opted into Hamas. The border treaty was, as of that moment, in abeyance–and absent Hamas’s desire to act like a real nation and recognize its neighbor instead of preaching our destruction, there is no one to negotiate with. It’s not to “punish” the Gazans for voting for Hamas, because they had voted to Hamas two years BEFORE the borders were closed.

    “15. So you think AI is making those numbers up? ”

    I have no idea. Since you didn’t provide a link to the quote it is hard to tell what their source of information is, or when this was said, or by whom or in what context. Since AI and HRW have both come under fire for their anti-Israel pimping over the last two years, due to the influx of “new blood” of the Left wing-hate Israel variety, to the point where the founder of HRW expressed disgust at the dishonesty rampant in his former organization. Because of such factors, no intelligent person can simply accept just the word of an NGO, because their biases are so well documented that they have lost their credibility. Instead, I will consider what they present but I want to see what they base their conclusions on before I just accept it because they “said” so.

    “Firing missiles from the air into one of the most crowded place on earth is a recipe for killing innocents, isn’t it? ”

    Let’s do away with this myth once and for all.

    First, Gaza is not one of “the most crowded places on earth” which is one of the Big Lies of Pallywood Propaganda machine. If you go online you can get figures for population density. Singapore, Hong Kong and Mumbai are all way more crowded than Gaza. As are other places listed in population density records. The news is full of pictures of kassam rockets being launched, and young jihadis training, in wide open spaces–so there is a lot of room in Gaza.

    And know what? More crowded than Gaza is central Tel Aviv. But the latter is threatened almost weekly with dire promises of missile fire from Hezbollah, yet I don’t hear you or your Left wing friends protesting loudly about how that would be a war crime as it would constitute firing missiles into a civilian population more crowded than Gaza’s.

    Second, this concern for the civilian population seems terribly recent and wholly one-sided — where were you and your protestations of human rights violations when suicide bombers were blowing up women and children in buses, pizza parlors, ice cream shops? And where were your protests during the 8 years of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza into Israel’s towns?

    No, I don’t think the IDF was wrong to conduct the war in Gaza as they did–it was conducted with far more regard for civilians than any war in this century or the last, including those waged by the UK and other coalition forces.

    No, I don’t think the Gazans volunteered to be human shields, but they were abused that way by Hamas any way; people were ordered into the open to give cover to Hamas gunmen; Kassam crews set up in the street next to buildings where people had taken refuge; and the leadership!! The entire command structure of Hamas was hunkered down in a bunker underneath Gaza’s biggest hospital — THAT’s not using civilians as human shields?

    “You’re wrong. I wish I could help Darfur. I wish I could help all the people who’re suffering.”

    Well, I think I’m right because the Left, which brings its voice to bear on the issue of Palestine, is almost completely silent about Darfur.

    “The conflict in Darfur presents a very complex situation with very complex problems. There are just so many different tribal groups, so many interests involved that it’s difficult to do anything if you’re not some very strong regional force.”

    Well, nuance! The situation with Israel and the Arabs is also a very complex situation with complex problems and one of the things that makes the Left’s approach so laughable is its insistence on reducing an incredibly complex, multi-religious, multi-ethnic, competing-interests, differing-historical-perspectives long term conflict into the very simplistic, “Israel Evil, Palestinians Good” with generally fatal results for Israelis. The UN promise to guard us against Egyptian aggression–abandoned in a phone call by Nasser. The UN’s promise to keep Hezbollah from rearming–a joke. What you call the Oslo Accords we refer to as the Oslo War, because the outcome of Oslo was Arafat’s terror war–until which the borders were open, by the way.

    “I agree that media don’t cover the issue of Darfur as much as it should. But it doesn’t change the fact that people in Gaza are suffering as well. What’s wrong with sending aid to Gaza?”

    Nothing is wrong with sending aid to Gaza. We send tons of it daily. We sent it by truckload. Aid isn’t the problem. It’s the caches of arms stacked behind the flour bags that are a problem; it’s the mortar shells and AK-47 ammo smuggled in with the aid cargo that is the problem. Aid is fine–but we insist on the right to inspect that “aid” to make sure weaponry doesn’t get in.

    Now, I haven’t had a chance to look at your links, and we have company for dinner tonight, so I have to go, but I’ll look at them later and respond.

    Shabbat shalom!

  27. twight
    Jun 11, 2010 @ 17:20:34

    All right. I haven’t had time to respond today either; I’ll try to do it tomorrow. Enjoy your evening.

    May peace be with you!

  28. twight
    Jun 13, 2010 @ 10:03:11

    OK, I finally found some time to respond:

    – “I don’t think Goldstone is an antiSemite; I think he is either a fool or an opportunist.”

    I don’t share your opinion about him and his report, but I respect your opinion. I’m just curious: would you think the same way about him if his report would not criticize Israel? The report may not be perfect but it’s far from “political lynching”. I also believe that with all those attempts to discredit human-rights agencies and even former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunals, Israel merely showed it can not tolerate reasonable criticism, which is a sign of weakness, not strength.

    I’m not saying your comments on certain European cultures are not history based, I’m merely saying that your response on British and French critics of Israel’s Gaza flotilla raid and the blockade was paranoid, too prejudiced and not proportional. And especially not self-critical. Let me ask you a question: if a teacher came to you and complained about your kid’s behaviour in school, how would you reply? Would you say: “thanks for letting me know, I’ll talk to him/her.” or would you rather attack her: “he’s innocent. But you and other teachers have always had something against him.”?

    – “…without the war urged by the Arab world since 1948, none of Israel’s actions against the Palestinians and their state backers would be necessary.”

    Any idea why did Arab world declare war in 1948? Surely not out of boredom.

    – “How would you know since you apparently have never lived here and don’t plan to visit? Absent experience, this is just your personal opinion based on, apparently, nothing. Do you apeak or read Hebrew? How can you even listen to the news or read the papers, journals, studies and op-eds.”

    You’re right about my lack of experience. And no, I can’t read Hebrew (but I can read english editions of some Israeli press). I’m not saying I’m an expert in Israeli society and internal problems. However, I’m not blind either. I see the way Israeli governments and politicians have been acting lately (always blaming others & attacking anyone who criticizes them) and I’ve seen shocking lack of empathy for those hundreds of civilians who died during Operation Cast Lead last year. If you cannot empathize with others then you are unlikely to care about them. So I think I can conclude with Harkabi’s words: “No factor endangers Israel’s future more than self-righteousness, which blinds us to reality, prevents a complex understanding of the situation, and LEGITIMIZES extreme behavior.” 🙂

    – “This is why Tony Blair is correct about one thing–the bottom line is economics, and if the economy and trade and tax-break zone of Gaza and the West Bank continue to thrive, the common Palestinian in the street, like his Israeli counterpart, will be more interested in the economic well being of his family and his kids’ future than in waging jihad.”

    I hope you realize that it’s Israel who controls Gaza’s economy. Israel is stronger player in this conflict. That’s why I said I don’t think it’s Gazans who’re holding the keys.

    – “and absent Hamas’s desire to act like a real nation and recognize its neighbor instead of preaching our destruction, there is no one to negotiate with. It’s not to “punish” the Gazans for voting for Hamas, because they had voted to Hamas two years BEFORE the borders were closed.”

    Few thoughts: Hamas is a complex movement that contains both radical ideologues and more moderate people in positions of leadership. It’s easy to say you can’t talk to them if you don’t try. Do you remember that Hamas offered Israel a long-term truce in 2004 in exchange for Israel’s withdrawal from the occupied territories? Hamas also confirmed that they would accept any peace agreement for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, provided that it was ratified by a popular referendum. In both cases, Israel was not interested. Israel has also never defined the borders within which it is supposed to be recognized. And finally, Hamas may have been elected two years before the borders were closed, but it doesn’t change the fact that today the blockade is collective punishments for ALL Gazans.

    – “First, Gaza is not one of “the most crowded places on earth” which is one of the Big Lies of Pallywood Propaganda machine. ”

    Gaza is said to be 25 miles by 5 miles and home to 1.5 million people. Maybe it doen’t make it the most crowded place on earth, but it surely is somewhere in the top. Having few open speces doesn’t change anything.

    Regarding the concern for the civilian population, tell me which side has more civilian casualties? Take Op Cast Lead for instance. It’s really funny how is Israel always trying to portray itself as a victim.

    Professor Avi Shlaim explained it this way: “The resort to brute military force is accompanied, as always, by the shrill rhetoric of victimhood and a farrago of self-pity overlaid with self-righteousness,” he says. “In Hebrew this is known as the syndrome of ‘bokhim ve-yorim,’ – crying and shooting.” Shlaim also said that while Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression (from Hamas rockets), the imbalance of power between the two sides leaves little doubt as to who the real victim is. I agree with him.

    – “No, I don’t think the IDF was wrong to conduct the war in Gaza as they did–it was conducted with far more regard for civilians than any war in this century”

    It’s seems you’re one of those who believe in the Israeli myth called “a moral army”. Luckily, we have many different reports (and even few ex-IDF soldiers who fought in Gaza) that leave no doubt about the truth.

    – “Nothing is wrong with sending aid to Gaza”

    The way Israeli commandos attacked those activists in international waters (and killed some of them) makes me think something is wrong with sending aid to Gaza…

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